Continued from yesterday
In this concluding
part of the interview President Muhammadu Buhari granted Eric osagie,
The SunMD/Editor-in-Chief in company of Paulinus Aidoghie in 2012, he
explains why he is not super rich despite being former Head of State.
But don’t you think you went too far?
What do you mean by going too far?
But you went to the extreme that public
officers could do no wrong, as if they were saints. You called the
decree ‘Protection of Public Officers Against False Accusation,’ and
clamped down on the media.
Those who did it, the editors, the
reporters, we jailed them. But we never closed a whole institution, as
others did. We investigated and prosecuted according to the laws,
because shutting a newspaper, it is an institution and we lose thousands
of jobs. But we found out who made that false report, who was the
editor, who okayed it and then, we jailed them.
No regret?
No regret, because we did it according to the laws we made. We neither closed a whole institution and caused job losses.
Then, you left power, 20 months after…
No. I was sent packing from power.
Ok, you didn’t leave on your own volition?
No.
That is a good one. For Nigerians, they remember War Against Indiscipline you brought. What was the philosophy behind it?
Well, I think we realised that the main
problem of Nigeria, then and now, was indiscipline and corruption. When I
say we, I mean the Supreme Military Council. Those two, are Nigeria’s
Achilles heels. And I believe the Nigeria elite knew it then and they
know it now. So, we started to discipline them. People must realise
their level in the society and accept it. If you go and read hard and
get a PhD, certainly you will get the best of life than somebody who
hasn’t been to school at all or who has been a drop-out. And then, in
the public, people must behave responsibly. If you go to bus stops, it
is step-by-step or turn-by-turn, and not to force your way. If you go
to bank, you find out if people were there before you. Why can’t you go
behind them?
Or you come early and be number one.
Exactly! I think that was accepted. And
up till now, I think it is the only thing that survived out of our
administration, the queue culture. People accepted it with calmness. And
in Lagos, they wouldn’t like to associate themselves with the military,
so they call it KAI. That is right. Kick Against Indiscipline. But it
is still the same thing. It is the same. The only difference is that one
was brought by the military and this one is through democratic system.
When you were eased out of power and you had time to reflect for three years, what did you then see that was wrong?
We gave them the opportunity in the three
councils I told you. Those rules are supposed to be in the Nigerian
archives, except somebody destroyed them, destroyed the evidence.
Otherwise, what did we do wrong to warrant being sacked? For example,
when we overthrew the Second Republic, we had what we called the SIP,
the Special Investigation Panel that comprised the police, the National
Security Organisation (NSO) then and the intelligence community of the
military. We did nothing by impulse or ad hoc. We went through the
system.
And then, you handed down long jail terms, some 100 years. That was something else. Why did you do that?
They would never see the daylight again to commit another crime against humanity.
Would you say your detention period made you a new person?
I think I have always been the same
person. When I came out, I was amazed, amazed in the sense that people
in my immediate constituency didn’t seem to bother about the major
setback I had. They were still coming to me, expecting me to help them
in a way. Not in terms of material help, because they knew that I didn’t
operate any money house or any petroleum bloc or any filling station…
How can you say a whole oil minister like you didn’t have any oil licence?
No. Not one, and not any for any blood
relation or anybody close to me. Really, somehow, people in my community
felt that I can still help them. But with that setback, I was wondering
how. So, the only way for me, I think, was to join partisan politics
so that I can have a platform to speak about the opinion of my
constituency, immediate constituency. But the thing that convinced me
more than the pressure from immediate locality was the change in 1991,
the collapse of the Soviet Union. I have said this so often that an
empire in the 20th century, collapsed and a lot of people ran back home,
leaving strategic installations behind, like missile sites, nuclear
formation and so on. And now, there are about 18 to 19 or 20 republics.
It was then that I believed, personally, in my own assessment, that
multi-party democratic system was and is still superior to despotism.
That was your turning point?
That was the turning point. But there is a
big caveat: elections must be free and fair! And that is what we need.
Elections must be free and fair, otherwise, the whole thing will be
something else.
During
your tenure, one case kept coming up: the 53 suitcases. You had ordered
the border shut and your Aide de Camp (ADC), Major Jokolo, was alleged
to have escorted 53 suitcases into the country. What happened? Why were
you selective?
There was nothing like 53 suitcases. What
happened was that there was my chief of protocol; he is now late. He
had three wives, and I think about 12 children. He was in Saudi Arabia
as Nigeria Ambassador to Saudi Arabia. He was in Libya before, as
ambassador and later, he was posted to Saudi Arabia. And then, I
appointed him as my chief of protocol and he was coming back. Three
wives, about 12 children. And then, by some coincidence, the late Emir
of Gwandu, the father of Jokolo, who was my ADC then, was coming back
with the same flight. And somehow, some mischievous fellows, everything,
including the handbag of maybe, their small daughters, were counted as
suitcases. Atiku then was the Commandant of Murtala Muhammed Airport as
customs officer. And that day, we were playing squash. Jokolo my ADC and
I. At some point, I said to him, ‘Mustapha, is your father not coming
back today again?’ He said, ‘yes, sir, he is coming.’ I said, ‘what are
you doing here? Why can’t you go and meet your father?’ He said yes,
sir. He went to wash and meet his father. I am telling you there was no
53 bags of suitcases. It was a bloody lie. It was a bloody mischief.
So, not that he was detailed?
No, he was not detailed. He was not even
about to go. I was the one who made him to go and meet his father. He
was a respected emir, in fact, if not the most respected emir in the
North then. He was learned, he had fantastic credibility and personal
integrity. And this man was just coming on posting with his wives and
children and they counted every imaginable thing, they said 53
suitcases.
Was that why Atiku was retired?
I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t think I retired Atiku. I can’t recall because I had nothing against anybody.
But the argument was that the border was ordered shut. So, how did those people then come in?
They came by air. We didn’t stop aircraft
coming in. They came by air, from Jedda to Lagos. They didn’t drive
through Chad to Maiduguri and… People just say 53 suitcases when all
borders had been ordered shut because that is how you can sell your
papers.
Then you
came into politics and every election you are there. Would you still do
politics at 70 years, elective politics, offering yourself for
election?
This is what I told the audience that
came to listen to my address before we started the campaign for the 2011
elections. But my party and supporters were sending representatives. Up
till today, they haven’t stopped. But what I told them was that we are
in the process now of reorganising the party and perhaps, come into an
alignment with other parties. Whatever the parties decide, whether my
party or the new party that align and we are hoping to develop; if they
give me the ticket or recommend me, I will consider it. That is the
position we are now.
Until you get to that stage you can give a definite answer?
Until we get to that stage, there is no clear answer now. Let’s wait and see.
Is it that you don’t like money? Anytime
somebody sees you, they say General Buhari is so austere. What gave you
that kind of lifestyle? Nobody is associating you with millions. My
reporter here was pointing to one mansion of a former governor who just
ruled for eight years. So, how did you develop this frugal lifestyle? Is
it that you don’t like good life? How do you unwind? Well, some of us
have heard that you used to smoke. Do you still smoke? What are those
things you have given up?
I used to smoke, but of course, I abandoned it I think in 1977.
Oh really? Before you became head of state?
Yes, I stopped smoking.
Have you ever taken alcohol?
No.
Never?
Never.
Even as a young man and all that?
No, no. Even in the military tradition,
how they break you in, I said well, the military did not stop anybody
practising his religion. My religion said no alcohol and no alcohol. So,
that was respected. I was never forced to take alcohol and I have never
voluntarily taken it because I want to remain alert all the time. There
is a tendency that when you drink, you would want to have a bottle
more, or a glass more and do something stupid.
As a young man,
very handsome because I saw some of your old pictures, did you have
women flocking around you? And women like soldiers, people who have
power…
I also thought women ought to have taken
more interest in me but I don’t know why they didn’t. I must have
something they didn’t like. I assure you of that. I didn’t drink, I
smoked, I had girlfriends; it was true.
How many did you have?
I hope you won’t publish this because my
wife will read the interview. So, you will be very kind to me if you
don’t publish that (general laughter).
You joined the army and there was coup and counter-coup and civil war. You still had time to unwind?
You can create it but we had too much
eventful time, professional career. It was too eventful. There were too
many things happening almost at the same time. If I could recall, the 30
months civil war that we had, I was just having two weeks after every
six months to come back home just to see my old mother and some of my
relatives because I refused to get married till after the war.
Was it deliberate?
It was deliberate.
Why? I thought that would have been the reason to get married.
No, no. Some of our colleagues, like late
Vatsa, like Babangida, they were more adventurous than myself. They
took a weekend and had a quick marriage and went back to the front. I
thought I would be putting the poor girl or the poor woman under a lot
of stress. So, I said if I survived the war, I would get married, but if
I didn’t survive, no woman should cry for me other than my relatives.
Some of your General-colleagues
became stupendously rich. Today, they have means. I am not a lawyer
taking inventory of your assets or preparing your will, but tell me what
property do you have now at 70? I am sure you have a house in Abuja,
you have one in Lagos. You have one in Daura and you have one here
(Kaduna). So, if I count your property, maybe five. Am I right or wrong?
You are right but am not going to read or
declare with you. My assets were on record, I told some of your
colleagues when they came. When Murtala/Obasanjo regime came, they made
sure that certain grades of public officers must declare their assets
when they assumed that office and they must declare when they were
leaving. So, when I was sworn in as governor of North East, I declared
my assets.
What did you declare?
I declared surprisingly, even the number
of my cows then. Even if they were supposed to be producing every year,
but I declared them the time I was there. And when I was leaving
governorship, I became petroleum minister. When I was leaving to go to
War College, I declared my assets. I could recall General Jemibewon
then, was the Adjutant-General of the Army. He rang me and said he was
sending me asset declaration form, that I must fill it, sign it before I
left for the United States. And I did. General Jemibewon is still
alive. And when I became head of state eventually, I declared my assets
again. So, all of us; when I say that, I mean Obasanjo downwards, those
who are alive who were governors, ministers, head of states, they had
declared assets. So, if you people are serious and interested about
political officers becoming multi-billionaires, you can find out from
Murtala downwards. And those of us who were not very good in making
money you should pity us. Is it that you don’t like money?
Everybody likes money but I am not very
good at making money. Let me put it that way. I borrowed from the banks
to build the house in Daura and the one in Abuja that you mentioned and
the one in Kano. The bank then was Barclays, now Union Bank. Kaduna
State or North Central then housing scheme and the Federal Mortgage Bank
for the house I am in and AIB, which was, I think, terminated by
Central Bank. So, when you go through the records, you find out that the
houses I built, I borrowed from there.
You are a
respected former head of state. What is your relationship with others,
Obasanjo, your former boss and at a point, your political opponent,
General Babangida, the man who took over from you and then, Shagari…
You are very nice. He took over from me and I took over from Shagari. You are very nice.
I want to be polite.
You are very nice. Ok, carry on.
What is your
relationship with them. I see some parts of patching up here and there,
but when a man is 70, you say it the way it is. What is your
relationship with all these people I have mentioned now, deep down?
I think the worst thing anybody can do to
oneself is to have either hatred or grudge on daily basis. One thing
will happen and you better forget.
Have you forgiven Babangida now? You once said you felt betrayed over the coup against your government?
I did. Publicly, I did.
You have?
I have and some of your papers published it. I said as a Muslim, I have forgiven him.
But during that period it happened, you must have been really angry?
Of course, I was angry because I can’t
recall what I had done for him to mobilise the military to overthrow me
and detain me for more than three years. Yeah, it is natural for me to
be upset.
Were you going to retire him before your
overthrow, as has been alleged? This is an opportunity to lay it
because we have heard those speculations that you were going to retire
him and he moved against you quickly.
Something like that happened but not him. I moved to retire his Director of Military Intelligence.
Akilu?